Episode 11: Transcripts
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If you could choose a life to live, what kind of life would it be? Would you choose to live in luxury- a socialite or royalty skating by on the toil of their ancestors or perhaps something more engaging like a famous movie star, musician, or artist? Would you prefer to be a economic titan, being the head of some international conglomerate? Maybe something more modest suits you- life as a blue collar worker, working the 9 to 5 with a little family in the country. How about a life rife with pleasures- drugs, sex, and reckless abandon. Undoubtedly with each choice comes the good and the bad. A bittersweet commonality among life is that we must all take the honey along with the bees, some folks just seem to get more of one than the other. Let’s imagine for a second that the life you are living is one that you chose. Are you satisfied with your choice?
Howdy and welcome to episode lucky number 11 of the Plutarch Project Podcast. I’m your autodidactic host Josh Nieubuurt and today we are talking about Plato and the story of Er. Before we get into the podcast we’d like to thank all the folks out there who have joined up for our giveaway. There’s still time for those wanting to toss their hat into the ring. The contest for 1 of 2 $20 amazon gift cards ends December 9th and we will be announcing a winner on December 12th. An extra special thanks to those beautiful souls who have clicked ads on our website, shopped through our amazon banner, or taken a gander at our Patreon page. You’re the real MVP’s and thanks for your support. Also, happy Thanksgiving for our American listeners. I think that’s about it for this week’s announcements so let’s get to the meat and pudding of today’s podcast. Let’s put on our best togas, grab a frothy stine of sweet mead, slap ourselves into a philosophical disposition and travel back in time-once again to ancient Greece and the year 380 BCE-ish.
At the conclusion of book 10 of Plato’s Republic Plato retells the story of Er. The story itself-which we will get to in a bit- is a fascinating allegory regarding what happens to a human soul after death. Near the conclusion of book 10 Plato-using a discourse between Socrates and Glaucon as his main speakers- attempt to prove the immortality of the soul.
Before jumping into the text and the ideas let’s bear in mind that Plato didn’t write treatises or straightforward philosophical doctrines to follow. The oftentimes dramatic flow of his dialogues is like a giant timeless welcome mat for all those who would come after him. It’s meant to show how his mind-and those whom he surrounded himself-worked through issues ideas and problems. It’s like an open letter to whomever feels like joining in and thinking things through with him. As we mentioned on our episode on Seneca and “the shortness of life,” the great philosophers are always there-even after their death-to add years to your own and to shine a light on life’s biggest questions. Today we will be stopping by Plato’s abode and having a chat with him about the soul.
To set up this proof of the immortality of the soul Plato-speaking through the mouth of Socrates- writes,
[quote]
“Are you not aware, I said, that the soul of man is immortal and imperishable? He looked at me in astonishment, and said: No, by heaven: And are you really prepared to maintain this?”[unquote]
Socrates affirms his ability in proving this theory stating, [quote] “Yes, I said, I ought to be, and you too– there is no difficulty in proving it.”[unquote]. This idea of the soul lingering on after death wasn’t new. Countless societies and religions of that time and continuing up into the current day maintain similar if not exact sentiments. This machine we call our body is just a case to house-or depending on your disposition- imprison- our soul. This is something quite a few people may take for granted. What happens after death is where there are points of contention. It’s here that Plato laid out a theory of the afterlife that would linger long after his demise seeping into religious, scientific, and philosophical thought. So how did he prove the soul’s immortality? Let’s take another look at the text.
Plato provides examples of things that are destroyed by other things: rust and metal, disease and the body, and mold and perishable goods. He cites that one contender as something that could hypothetically destroy the soul is evil or injustice. Socrates asks Glaucon if his premise that there is [quote], “in everything, or in almost everything, there is an inherent evil and disease”[unquote] is agreeable. Glaucon affirms this statement and Plato continues on discussing how evil may corrupt the soul, but cannot destroy it.[quote]
“The vice and evil which is inherent in each is the destruction of each; and it this does not destroy them there is nothing else that will; for good certainly will not destroy them, nor again, that which is neither good nor evil” [unquote]
He goes on to list some of the evils that inflict humans including: unrighteousness, intemperance, cowardice, and ignorance. Although These may corrupt an individual they do not destroy them. Plato asks if any of these actually destroy the soul, rather than only corrupting it. Like getting a scratch on a ring coated in 24 karat gold, the underlying metal still remains despite the flaw. Plato warns us to be careful of mixing up the corruption, or the flaw to return to our metaphor, and actual destruction. He uses an analogy of the human body to separate the two ideas , [quote]
“do not let us fall into the error of supposing that the unjust and foolish man, when he is detected, perishes through his own injustice, which is an evil of the soul. Take the analogy of the body: The evil of the body is a disease which wastes and reduces and annihilates the body; and all the things of which we were just now speaking come to annihilation through their own corruption attaching to them and inhereing in them and so destroying them.”[unquote]
While disease may destroy the body, the ghost inside could hypothetically linger on. Plato then uses food as an analogy. If food begins to decompose-without us eating it- then it shouldn’t destroy the body. And even if were were to eat it, it’s not the food that is the source of the evil, but the body’s inability to fight the corruption brought on by the food. In other words, the decomposition of food has its own source outside of itself-in this instance let’s say it’s some kind of harmful bacteria. If that bacteria can cause harm to humans then it can corrupt and endanger-or kill, the body. But does bacteria, and the diseases inherent in some forms of bacteria, have the ability to destroy the soul? Spoiled milk may make us feel like our soul is being destroyed but after we recover we can surely see that it is still intact.
In the case of both food and the body Plato attributes their demise to their own reactions to the outside evil-causing themselves to destroy themselves. From a contemporary standpoint this might sound archaic and silly. More than a few scholars have come to this point in the text and found plenty to shake a finger at. The claim that there is only 1 natural evil or destroyer of something doesn’t seem likely. Wood’s natural enemy is rot but it can also be burned, metal can be destroyed through rust, but it can also melted, and there are countless diseases that can harm the human body.
But remember this was way before modern science and medicine and Plato was just using this to set up his theory. He continues on writing,
[quote] “On the same principle, unless some bodily evil can produce an evil of the soul, we must not suppose that the soul, which is one thing, can be dissolved by any merely external evil which belongs to another.”[unquote]
To make this a bit more simple let’s make it into a TDRL: Things can only be destroyed by things that are bad for them. Things such as unrighteousness or injustice may tarnish the facade of the soul but they are incapable of completely destroying it. Let’s say a man-or woman- lives a life of unrighteousness. They do all kinds of quote bad things unquote. They may get their comeuppance or they may not; regardless their body and soul continue on until death. If unrighteousness had the ability to destroy the soul then tyrants, murderers, and the like wouldn’t live particularly long; which history has shown time and again to not be true. Plato notes that often people who are caught being unjust are put to death. This may seem as though their injustice has killed them, but Plato see’s it in a different light. Their body may die but as he claimed before the soul is left. He puts it this way,
[quote]
“in that case injustice, if fatal to the unjust, will not be so very terrible to him, for he will be delivered from evil. But I rather suspect that opposite to be the truth, and that injustice which, if it have the power, will murder others, keeps the murderer alive—aye, and well awake too; so far removed is her dwelling-place from being a house of death.” [unquote]
Furthermore, the amount of souls has been and will always be the same. If they are immortal there is no purpose to create new ones or destroy them. He writes,
“then souls must always be the same, for if none be destroyed they will not diminish in number, Neither will they increase, for the increase of the immortal natures must come from something mortal, and all things would thus end in immortality.”[unquote].
That’s quite a lot to take in. To recap today’s pertinent point; Plato didn’t think the soul could be destroyed, only tarnished while living. While living the soul itself is something akin to a diamond in the rough. The deeds of the body being the coal surrounding the precious gem hidden inside. Plato believes to see things reasonably we have to consider the untarnished gem hidden beneath the life surrounding it. [quote]
“But to see her as she really is, not as we now behold her, marred by communion with the body and other miseries, you must contemplate her with the eye of reason, in her original purity; and then her beauty will be revealed, and justice and injustice and all the things which we have described will be manifested more clearly”[unquote] But it is impossible to view the soul as it really is while in human form. Plato says it is akin to seeing the dilapidated weather beaten and seaweed encrusted statue of Poseidon.
He writes, [quote] “and the soul which we behold is in a similar condition, disfigured by ten thousand ills.” But the soul isn’t a corporeal thing. It belongs to the realm of forms-much like ideas-they both must be immortal because they cannot be destroyed. Here Plato places the soul into the realm of the abstract. In modern times-where so much information is recorded digitally-with the chance of it being preserved forever- it’s not hard to make the leap that ideas, souls, and other abstract forms live on after the death of the original thinker. Other detractors from the argument put forth by Plato take pause here as well. It seems that Plato is taking a big part of his theory for granted. He assumes that the soul and the body are radically different substances-without really proving it. For now let’s just imagine that he is correct in this grand assumption. This too raises a new question, though.
What happens to these folks with their tarnished souls after the demise of the body?
This is where Plato turns to the myth of Er. We’ve mentioned myths in the past. But to make sure we are using the correct form of the word it’s pertinent to mention that this use of myth is more akin to our modern words of “speech or account of” something. Unlike our previous episodes this “myth” was meant to be taken as a literal account of the afterlife according to Er, and retold by Plato in “the Republic.” The myth of Er is comparable to what we would now call a near death experience.Many scholars have insisted that it is a consolation for people not interested in philosophy- it gives them a chance at justice after their life has concluded.
There are tons and tons of good sources available on the specifics of the Myth of Er. So we are going to move through it rather quickly with the short and sweet version. Plato begins the retelling of this account with the following words: [quote]
“Er the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. he was slain in battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried. On the twelfth day, as he was laying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world.”[unquote]
For 12 days people thought good ol’ Er was dead. Then boom, he wakes up and tells them a tale that will knock the socks off of people for centuries to come. He states that after the soul has departed from the body it joined a great company of other souls and arrived at a valley-or meadow, depending on your translation- with four openings; two being entrances and two being exits. Two of these opening led into the earth. The other two came down from the sky. In the between space inhabited by Er and his newly departed kin, there were also a whole host of judges.
These judges would sentence each soul to a thousand years of reward in the place up above or a thousand years of punishment down below. If they were sentenced to go below these folks [quote] “also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened to their back”[unquote]. As Er drew near to the judges he was told that he would not be sentenced. Rather he would live to share what he saw with the world of mankind.
After the judgement souls began arriving to this middle ground from the second hole in the earth and the heavens. Those from the earth looked beaten down and dirty, weary with a thousand years of punishment in the belly of the earth. Those arriving from the sky were clean, bright, and jovial. They met in the valley and told tales of what they had endured in each respective place and began a festival. Those that had known each other in their past life embraced. Those that had gone to the heavens told of innumerable pleasures, beauteous sights, and a thousand years of ease. Those that had gone into the belly of the earth told of the hardships endured and weeped at the suffering that had been inflicted upon them. As plato writes,[quote] “for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold.”[unquote] Now although some of the people from the earth were allowed out, others were not. The tyrants, mass murderers, and the the real villains of history were also dealt the tenfold punishment. For some they were reside in the belly of the earth forever; these souls were allowed to walk up right until the entrance. Then, when they were nearly free, the mouth of the exit would roar then, [quote]
“wild men of fiery as@ect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off”[unquote] While being carried out they would be bound, whipped, and their crimes would be shouted out to those who were now walking toward their freedom. a staunch warning to what may become of their souls if they are unwise.
The festival in the meadow lasted seven days. One the eighth they began to travel onward to their next existence. After four days they reached a column of rainbow-light rising into the heavens. This beam of light connects all of the universe, each part is cyclical and is continuously spinning along its own orbit. They each also have their own note made from their spinning, together they form a harmony. It is here that the fates reside. One for the past, the present, and the future. The fate of the past dealt them out lots. A prophet arranged them in order and told them of what was to come,
[quote] “mortal souls, behold a new cycle of life and mortality. your genius will not be allotted to you, but you choose your genius; and let him who draws the first lot have the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be his destiny”[unquote].
notice if you will that it is not the gods or some mythical creature who chooses their destiny. It is the individual soul who gets a chance at the lot of their next life. The lives have been laid out, and their destiny is plotted-so in a sense there is some sort of predestination at work-but the choice of which life goes to whom is up to the soul itself. [Quote] “Virtue is free, and as a man honors her he will have no more or less of her; the responsibility is with the chooser–God is justified.”[unquote].
Each soul then took its lot and lined up to choose their next life. Plato notes that there were far more lives available than souls present. All kinds of lives were there, not just the lives of men but also of animals in all states of genius, condition, and heritage.
What was notable about them was that despite their destinies being laid out, and their various attributes given, each life lacked a character; this would only be supplied by the maleable soul which was to live that life.
Plato pauses the story of Er to inform Glaucon on a matter of importance writing, [quote]
“Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if perhaps he may be able to learn and discern between good and evil, and so choose always and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity.”[unquote]
It’s not only the better life which plato pleads for us to search out. But to also have the forethought to consider what a “better life” actually means. In this pause from the story he asks us to consider how different attributes and life circumstances mix and mingle to present situations for us to rise toward the heavens, or to add onto our backs as we make our long trek toward the bowels of the earth.
[quote] “From all the consideration of these qualities he will be able to determine which the better and which is the worse; and so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and the good to the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard” [unquote]
Let’s take a short pause here and consider our own life circumstances.
Have we been making the decisions to lead us to a just existence? Or have we- and are we- currently choosing an unjust path which will lead us to carry unwanted baggage for the remainder of our time in this life? go ahead and think about it for a few moments.
Returning to the tale, there was a life for everyone that could lead them to an existence that was [quote] “a happy and not undesirable existence “[unquote] But, only if they took the time to consider their choices. The first soul to choose a lot did so unwisely, having been laid up in heaven for a thousand years they chose an existence that appeared similair upon first looking at it. Only after they chose and took a closer look did they find the tyranny underneath the glittering facade; in the tale this soul would end up eating their children. Sounds a bit like our episode on the Greek cosmogony. Plato then adds in a whole host of figures from tales and mythology, each choosing a life based off of their prior experiences. Quite often souls with good past lives would swap for an evil one and vice versa.
Those who had spent a thousand years in the earth took more time and chose more wisely than their kin who had lived in the heavens. Odysseus, was the last to choose. And after considering his past life he searched for a quaint life with no cares. After a long search he found it and proclaimed that this would have been the life he would have chosen even if he had gone first.
The souls were then led on by their chosen destinies and sealed into a bond by the fate of the present. From there they were marched through a scorching plain.
This plain was meant to aid in the forgetting of their past existence. By nightfall they had reached the river Lethe-the river of unmindfulness. They were prompted to drink only a certain amount-of course some less keen souls drank more than necessary being parched from the walk through the desert. After drinking they forgot all things and began to slumber. During the night Er, who had not been able to drink the water- witnessed a violent thunderstorm and earthquake. The souls-attached to their new destinites- shot skyward into their new lives. Er himself could not recall how he was returned to his body- only that he awoke on the funeral pyre.
Plato concludes the story telling glaucon that we must strive ever onward towards righteousness and justice- despite what trials we may face, so that when we find ourselves on the plain of judgement we will be blessed with the best of all possible outcomes.
For many of us in contemporary society this tale may seem rather silly and archaic. But it does have an idea that has transcended the boundaries of religion, philosophy, and other schools of thought; the idea that we should search to be the best possible person that we can. Noone has ever claimed it to be easy, on the contrary quite a few great thinkers and historical figures have claimed the opposite, but through the trials of life-the suffering of existence- and the ills which plague existence we must find what it means to be the best that we can be- not just for ourselves, but also for those who we may encounter in this journey of life.
Looking back on the person you were when you began this podcast, would you consider this life you’re living to be a good choice? If not what can you do to better your existence? I wish you all nothing but the best of all possible outcomes on this journey of life. Thanks for listening, onward.
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